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Torque » Torque OBD ECU Scanner » Torque Discussion / Ideas » Ford Misfire PIDs--ALMOST solved...

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Author Topic: Ford Misfire PIDs--ALMOST solved...
Capp777
Member
Posts: 2993
Post Re: Ford Misfire PIDs--ALMOST solved...
on: September 4, 2017 (GMT)

The mode 22 request is issued from
the adapter to the specific module
then the adapter waits for its response
or a timeout to occur. This is the same
for mode 06 requests.

To my knowledge, Ian hasn’t used any
of the data rate capabilities built into
the standard.

How Ian is managing the polling of the
active requests, optimization of the pid
requests and priorities is not public
knowledge but Ian has offered some clues
along the way like recently disclosing that
multiple requests to the same pid per loop
are answered by one response eliminating
extra network traffic.

How often the ECU is updating your pid is
unknown to me but 200 revolutions can go by
quick and if your PWM pid rate is similar to my
vehicles (~18 pids per second) I would wonder if
the polling rate is quick enough to catch all the
data changes.

As always… I could be wrong in my understanding.

(Just another Torque Pro user).

F-150Torqued
Member
Posts: 437
Post Re: Ford Misfire PIDs--ALMOST solved...
on: September 5, 2017 (GMT)

As for the suspected 1688 fault—-not sure how I would even go about ‘testing’ it.

Yeah… that’s a big problem. There are MANY bit oriented ‘fault’ PIDs that can/could be tremendously helpful if they can be sorted out. But they are _ALL_ hard to VERIFY. I’ve unplugged the Evap Purge valve – drove with gas cap off – ran with MAF, CMPs, Oil Temp Sensor, (certain) O2 sensors, and all sorts of stuff ‘unplugged’ to see what happens!. But even as eccentric as I am, I wouldn’t pull the IM to screw with the CHT sensor just to see what happens.

ADDITIONALLY, there are probably fifteen ‘FMEM” (Failure Mode Engine Management) mode indicator flags that would be MOST helpful for diagnosis if they can be verified / identified / trusted. The OBDII design is intended to /keep the vehicle running even if in a limited mode. I think many loss of power or performance complaints could be attributed to one of these things. ie: TOFMEM – Transmission over Temperature FMEM, EGRFM – EGR System in MFEM, TCCFM – Torque Converter Clutch unlocked (FMEM) due to excessive slip, and several other useful ones. ///MANY of these are in PIDs 1105, 1106, and 1107/// Then the engineers stuck ‘shift solenoids 1,2,3 in PID 1105 amongst them to confuse things. I notice your in your linked spreadsheet – Shift Solenoid 1 Control – SS1 (1105 b4) is on – but all the Others are zero. So these PIDs are applicable to your vehicle – and none of the mentioned problem flags exist in your scan run.

If you were to create a custom PID 06A20B or 06A20C (Cylinder 1 Misfire Events for CAN) and press the “TEST” button on the custom PID

I have done this. As best as I can tell – the program design concept of Torque is to send individual requests in a continuous loop. This is, to some degree, contrary to the ‘design intent’ of Mode 06, which (I believe) is to send One -test result – response stream per request. As a result (I believe), Torque seems to end up stepping on its shoe strings and stumbling. The session disconnects and the vehicle icon starts flashing. After a moment, it (vehicle icon) will reconnect and go steady again. —– Of course nothing changes on my screen (basically because my truck does not suffer ANY misfires). It will routinely go 40,50 or even 70 drive cycles without a single (post 1000 rev) misfire.

Since your vehicle ‘responds’ AT ALL to PID # 160[1-8], I think the PIDs ‘WORK’ on your version of PCM software. IDK, but likely the ‘current drive cycle and only for ‘post 1000 rev misfires’.

But I would re-emphasize (NO malice intended), that I think your concerns about dynamic misfire monitoring are misplaced. The Mode 6 report and the PIDs reporting ‘conditions present’ at the time of the last misfire (detailed in my post of 03/03/2017 on page 2 above) are likely more helpful in resolving misfire issues than are dynamic monitoring of misfires – when they occur. As for ‘why’ they occur, isn’t it more what else is going on at the time that’s more important than ‘simply when they occur’? Could this be WHY 160[1-8] is removed from my model PCM software? There are ‘plenty’ of other great live data PIDs available for live data monitoring that can be causing misfires. Just MHO.

But I DO have healthy respect for your curious, inquisitive nature. Check your private email.

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54371019

s_tooz_123
Member
Posts: 20
Post Re: Ford Misfire PIDs--ALMOST solved...
on: September 6, 2017 (GMT)

@F-150Torqued:
Thanks for the information, and no malice taken. As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I know I need to replace my coils/plugs (I already bought them!!). I am really just trying to enhance my diagnostic capabilities and hopefully along the way, be able to identify solutions for others that could help them as well. As Capp777 indicated (and I agree), it seems like adding a capability into Torque to specify the number of return bytes for custom PIDs would be very beneficial for situations like mine. This thread would not exist if the capability was there, and I would be able to get back to my “honey do” list which is getting longer…. :-)

@Capp777:
Thanks for the PID polling insight…very useful. FWIW—In addition to the suspect Mode 22 misfire PIDs, I have tried a few others as tests…..on one of the PIDs (I forget the specific one, but I will find out), I received a constant stream of information, not a single response as I expected. The behavior was much like monitoring the Mode 010C (RPM) PID. For this case, do you think Torque is re-sending the command continually, or is there something missing in the response (e.g. “end of response” flag) that keeps the channel open, and Torque just keeps listening/displaying the last 6 data bytes or so?

Additionally, my vehicle was idling at about 635 RPM when the 4 misfires occurred (post 1000 revolutions). At that RPM, the suspected 200 revolution misfire counters (22160[1-8]) would be updated every 3.175 seconds. Does it seem plausible that I would have missed an updated value given this (relatively) long update cycle?

The quest continues……. :-)

Capp777
Member
Posts: 2993
Post Re: Ford Misfire PIDs--ALMOST solved...
on: September 6, 2017 (GMT)

I don’t believe Mode 06 uses the CID for
requests. When a TID has additional CID
data, in your case individual cylinders,
your ECU will respond with all that apply
with that TID.

The standard does provide data rate
capability for certain services… maybe you
accidentally sent a form of one of the
requests which activated the additional
responses.

Or maybe other modules are responding
to the same pid.

I really believe Ian is sending a single request
looking for a single response except in
cases of functional addressing where multiple
modules could respond or using a global type
header requesting all modules with the pid
to respond.

As always… my understanding could be wrong.

F-150Torqued
Member
Posts: 437
Post Re: Ford Misfire PIDs--ALMOST solved...
on: September 7, 2017 (GMT)

@s_tooz_123

I have some news to report.

My truck (2004 Lariat 5.4L) seldom experiences a misfire, but today – I (almost accidently) caused it to register 3 post 1000 revolution misfires. /// Testing some new gauges & unknown PIDs, I had turned the key on without starting the engine, and tested a bunch of switches and activities looking for an indication on any of the custom gauges///.

When I cranked the engine (I think because of static pressure in the fuel rail – I may have an injector that weeped), I had 3 misfires show up on my custom MODE 06 misfire count gauge for cylinder 4. Also, my Number of Drive Cycles without misfires (MFF_0_CNT PID# 16DC) was Zeroed out. It routinely gets up to 40 – 50 or more drive cycles without experiencing a misfire.

I immediately exited and ran a full Torque Mode 06 Report. Sure enough, cylinder 4 showed 3 misfires for the current drive cycle.

After my first stop / engine cycle, on restart MFF_0_CNT had started over at one – as it should be. And I checked my custom Mode 06 misfire count screen and as expected, all eight cylinders showed zero misfires for current drive cycle. (These are the MODE 06 gages detailed in my post to this thread on August 31, 2017 – in page 2 of this thread). SO – again, I ran a full Torque Mode 06 Report, and it also showed zero for all cyl’s misfire counts for the current drive cycle.

INTERESTINGLY, however – the counters for misfires in the last 10 drive cycles showed zero for ALL eight cylinders. (NOT what I expected) I KNEW, that there had been 3 on cyl 4 during the previous drive cycle. Upon much more study / research – I find that the last 10 drive cycle misfires is NOT a direct count, but has the EWMA (Exponentially Weighted Moving Average) algorithm applied to it. I supposed with all the other drive cycles being zero – weighted the count down to the point that the 3 misfires during the immediate prior drive cycle did not even show up in the Last 10 Drive Cycles count. ??? INTERESTING

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54371019

Dav_Daddy
Member
Posts: 1
Post Re: Ford Misfire PIDs--ALMOST solved...
on: February 7, 2023 (GMT)

Did you guys ever come to a conclusion as to whether we could access this information?

I actually started Googling this because I had an idea how to get which cylinder was misfiring using the misfire counter and crank position sensor? From what I gathered reading this thread up to now is that this wouldn’t be possible because there is a pretty serious delay between when a misfire is detected and when it is reported? 500 milliseconds if I recall correctly?

If there is no way to get this info from the pcm I’d bet I could MacGyver something up with an accelerometer a knock sensor and an Arduino. Though I’d still need to read that crank position sensor data at the very least.

Anyway thank you guys for the work you’ve put in to this point. It was a very interesting read even if I’m more of a tinkerer and nowhere near the coder either of you obviously are.

moreause
Member
Posts: 637
Post Re: Ford Misfire PIDs--ALMOST solved...
on: February 12, 2023 (GMT)

if you don’t realy need torque

get forscan …all those data are probably already built in

i use torque for the day to day …but when it get serious i switch to forscan … you have access to LOTTTSS of stuffs

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