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Torque » Torque OBD ECU Scanner » Torque Discussion / Ideas » Trans temp, IAT, and MAP

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Author Topic: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
MAFoElffen
Member
Posts: 27
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 26, 2014 (GMT)

Quote from m j on January 21, 2014
when do we start bugging Ian for DTC scans that work and self tests that work ? :)
I guess we work him to get some of these added to the Ford extended PID list first?
I am curious on that also… Because my impression was, that even with the 6.0 PSD’s, when “they” first started using and adding extended PID’s for the 6.0 a few years ago, there was limited OBD diagnostics that worked for them. But somewhere along the way(?) that limited stopped? Don’t quote me, I just got that impression from reading their original PSN/Torque App thread. But those were with 2004 plus’s on 6.0 liter’s. …ore maybe that was on the 99-03 (newer bodied) 7.3l’s? It was confusing in that thread to keep clear, which was which…

That’s when I was glad when m j split off a thread just for OSB’s. That made things simpler and easier to follow on what worked for them specifically.

I don’t know if “that side” of the app is working for them yet either. Honestly, I just took m j’s word for it that it wasn’t working for us yet and haven’t tried it on mine. I, like him, have been using Car Gauge Pro and AE for OBD diag’s on OSB’s.

I took a comment from m j about him finding a dual mechanical gauge for boost and EBP… and asked on this forum about doc’s or other info on creating new gauge types in Torque. No-one has answered on that yet. I see the hooks are there within the app, but I don’t see any info on those hooks to be able to use them yet to be able to create a user defined custom control with muliple data sources. The “data control” gauge is already doing that, but in a visual, multiple needle (or other indicator) GUI emulated gauge…

Various experience and interests

MAFoElffen
Member
Posts: 27
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 26, 2014 (GMT)

My understanding and translation of gas/diesel, my mechanical & programming experience… and what you’ve been talking and wondering about. I’ve been trying to learn the inner-working of the Ford ECU to eventually get more into tuning them… Since I’ve gotten Torque, that interest has peaked even more. researching all I can on my ’97 and the data collected for it’s ECU controlled systems. Ford seems to be protective of what is in their ECU. They don’t even tell their own tech’s what is in there. Their translations tables for voltages and psi are pretty sporadic, just giving voltage “limits” to some systems. I’ve found some translation tables, but had better luck trying to translate them myself comparing them within AE.

On petrol injection = throttle valve sensor. Diesel = accel pedal sensor and another accel sensor physically located above that on the firewall. So yes, basically, we use accel position, which is measured pretty much the same way as… but work’s differently and controls different things.

m j keeps worrying about our MAP’s using frequency instead of voltage… but you can read it “physically” as both. The Ford diagnostics manuals explain to their tech’s how to test those frequencies as if they were voltage and give some references to those from different sensors as psi/voltage tables. (But like I said, most of those I found are limits, to show if the sensor is bad and out-of-range.) What happens… is if you read a waveform frequency with a DC voltmeter, it rounds the actual voltage off and reads as the average of the plus side of the wave form… So even though MAP creates a frequency, MAP “voltages” show up as positive DC voltages from 0-5 volts. Does that make sense now?

Various experience and interests

Capp777
Member
Posts: 2917
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 26, 2014 (GMT)

Maf:

Any feedback on the alternate boost equations
using your vehicle baro and the latest polynomial
equations?

Edit:

A custom gauge as you described would require
multiple pid and equation entries… you might consider
a custom pid displaying the delta between two pids
until such time your gauge is available?

MAFoElffen
Member
Posts: 27
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 26, 2014 (GMT)

Quote from Capp777 on January 26, 2014
Maf:

Any feedback on the alternate boost equations
using your vehicle baro and the latest polynomial
equations?

Edit:

A custom gauge as you described would require
multiple pid and equation entries… you might consider
a custom pid displaying the delta between two pids
until such time your gauge is available?

I’m sorry I didn’t tell my truck’s status here. I shared it with mj and other’s but not to you.

It got broke into about a week and a half ago. It wasn’t your “normal” break in. They took my mechanical gauges, tuner chip, broke my dash and cut wires in my dash, cut the carpet down the length of the transmission hump, broke off the door panels… etc. Stole over a thousand in tools that I had in there at the time.

I had been working on changing a turbo wheel, when I found some oil leakage in my compressor. That is not a good thing on a diesel. Diesel’s will run on oil and can cause a runaway motor. I hit a snag that the exhaust bolts were froze on. I had been squirting down the bolts with penetrant and kept the tools in there waiting on them loosening up. mj had offered and I’m taking him up on his old turbo– me rebuilding that one to use in mine. That’s when the break in happened.

Right now, it’s going back together. Insurance paid for the parts that were installed and the damage, but none of the tools. I have the ECU back in, repairing the wiring, looking for a carpet and door panels. My turbo is still waiting there to be pulled. A minor setback.

In the meanwhile, winter quarter has started with fulltime classroom, online and hybrid programming classes. Friday night I did 3 labs and 2 programming projects. Last night I turned in 2 more projects. Today I have a test to do before mid-night and presently studying for it. They are usually timed 30 minutes… but I usually finish them in about 5 minutes. I knwo that first one I don’t over-study for… is the one that’s going to get me!!!

I needed a break and visited this forum. Still need to work on my truck a bit today also. Good thing it’s Sunday.

Various experience and interests

MAFoElffen
Member
Posts: 27
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 26, 2014 (GMT)

Wow…

I just noticed that “this forum” has content filters turned on with posts.

I tried to say how much in dollar amounts of tools was stolen. Each time it turned that amount into a double “00”. I wonder if it could mistakenly do that with the equations we post here(?)

Various experience and interests

Capp777
Member
Posts: 2917
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 26, 2014 (GMT)

Sorry to hear of your losses. It doesn’t
sound random to me. I hope you are
not dependent on those tools for your
living.

Have fun with your database classes?

Edit:

Oh yeah… and I still havent been successful
at posting images. Primer anyone?

MPD56
Member
Posts: 275
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 26, 2014 (GMT)

Sorry to hear about your truck, I read it in mj’s post on the other Forum.

I have also been keeping up on mj’s and your posts, thanks for the information. I’ve been playing around with Torque Pro with the 6.7L and my other vehicles and enjoy your posts. I’ve been collecting and making a spreadsheet of the PIDs. I want to soon post a list of the PIDs that I can share the ones I have or get any information for the ones I don’t. Sort of a “STICKY” I guess. Just not sure if posting 34 pages is going to be a good Idea??

MAFoElffen
Member
Posts: 27
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 26, 2014 (GMT)

Sorry to hear of your losses. It doesn’t
sound random to me. I hope you are
not dependant on those tools for your
living.

Have fun with your database classes?

Edit:

Oh yeah… and I still havent been successful
at posting images. Primer anyone?

Yes… The gauges where EGT/Boost/TFT and the tuner chip (I think) only fits ’94 thru ’97 Ford 7.3l’s…

Used to be mechanic. Used to be programmer. Then carpenter. They say my body is too beat up… So now trying to get back into programming. Actually the current classes are– Database (MS Access applications), Into to Programming (Visual Basic), Web Pages (HTML5 and CSS3( and Human Dimensions in the Office. Last time I did things with Visual Basic and Access was ’95? I know what I want to do (the logical steps), but some things have changed in the last 14 years. (The where and the tools to implement the how.)

Images on this forum… this forums package, IAN hasn’t added some of the extra’s too. One of those would be on “Avatars”… another is on file uploads. So I don’t see any option to upload a file… but you can post a link to a file (such as at 4shared or mediafire) and post an image by putting in the url to the image post tool (icon is a little painting)… if it’s uploaded elsewhere (Google +, Facebook, etc.)

Darn– Took the test. 13 out of 15. First time for that class that i didn’t get 100%.

Various experience and interests

MAFoElffen
Member
Posts: 27
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 26, 2014 (GMT)

From MPD56 on January 26, 2014

I have also been keeping up on mj’s and your posts, thanks for the information. I’ve been playing around with Torque Pro with the 6.7L and my other vehicles and enjoy your posts. I’ve been collecting and making a spreadsheet of the PIDs. I want to soon post a list of the PIDs that I can share the ones I have or get any information for the ones I don’t. Sort of a “STICKY” I guess. Just not sure if posting 34 pages is going to be a good Idea??

I talked to mj about that. He also has an excel spreadsheet going.

I think if it where in a database file (such as in Access) then it would be easier to maintain and keep track of things. Just a form for input. A report to be able to cut and paste into posts… And a flag field to say if it was still in test or is working.

I guess if you 2 didn’t have MS Access (mj has office but didn’t know if it was the pro version that included MS Access) then I could create it in OpenOffice Base ODF file format… Then anyone could use it. Of course it could be flatfile (dBase) which anyone could read/write to.

Various experience and interests

MAFoElffen
Member
Posts: 27
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 26, 2014 (GMT)

Getting those into a db files would make things simpler. That way you can analyze if things are duplicates or different… not just between records, but in different files. Or just pick out particles records. I can read in excel “data” shreadsheets into db files.

They also are handled differing in how the programs run. Spreadsheets (like Excel is) has to load the entire spreadsheet into memory for it to work with, then every time a value changes, if there is a calculation, if a field that is used in a calc changes, it recalc’s the entire worksheet.

Whereas a db file, it reads and writes records, one at a time. (Low overhead) and the underlying data doesn’t have to be how it is displayed… You can manipulate that (forms and reports).

To look for changes or new “now,” I have to look at mj’s and cap777’s posts… where he says “here’s a new one to test” or go through one by one, looking at each formula… or looking at the comments they have for each and the change dates in those comments.

Problem is we can’t share/post those “here” on this forum. We could on PSN though. (Or via email…)

Various experience and interests

MPD56
Member
Posts: 275
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 26, 2014 (GMT)

Thanks for the advice, I have MS office Pro, and it’s been along time since I created a DB with Access, but you’re right, in the end it is probably the way to go. I started off with a MS document because it was easy to cut & paste to the Torque forum and started a spreadsheet to organize them when my list got too long. It would help if I could easily post files and pictures on this forum without posting links.

Jack of all trades, certified Master to supervise 5 of them, which means that I’m a Jack that get smart people to do things I use to do, but can’t remember LOL. Simply put, I get paid well because they think I know and smart enough to know not to tell them I don’t.

MAFoElffen
Member
Posts: 27
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 27, 2014 (GMT)

Like me. LOL. Just had to survive.

But it goes back to one of my commanders in the military who told me–
“You don’t have to be good at everything or know everything about everything, as long as you either know how to find out or surround yourself with people that do know and can do those things.”

I’ve carried those words around with me a long time.

Various experience and interests

MAFoElffen
Member
Posts: 27
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 27, 2014 (GMT)

To capp777– I have questions…

I’m good at logical expressions, but new to Torque. So I’m not understanding how the equations in Torque are expressed logically yet. Getting data from multiple sources, I’ve seen you express them in various ways.

One is just like the Boost equation, where you give the MAP PID number () and subtract Baro()…

Second was your help to me to try to work on my Boost problem because I wasn’t getting Baro, which you pushed Baro’s PID# into the equation via using the format [PID_Number] in the equation(?)… right?

So I’m trying to work out something a bit further… The driven performance ratio between a driving force and a driven force…

Specifically, Boost “Drive Performance”– which I think should be expressed as Boost() divided by EBP(). That would give the percentage of Boost Pressure (the driven force) to EBP (the drive force) or a value of 1:x.

Realistically, physically, that is initially a rise in EBP pressure. Because of resistance and not being a direct drive, you see a lag until the turbo is spun up and the compressor builds pressure.

So I’m guessing it would translate to something like give the MAP PID, the equation for Boost, dividing by the EBP…

BUT– Could you explain how that “really” works to push multiple data addresses and working with the responses from them in a mathematical equation in “Torque”… Because inside Torque, it’s doing translation to communication to different things, get those data responses back, then handle those responses in the equation… right?

Just trying to understand how that works… the variable and function handling… and how to make that work within Torque. If I understand the “how it works”… It’s easier for me to understand how to tweak it and how to build onto that… You know, to understand how to speak the same language effectively.

Please? Please? Please?

Various experience and interests

Capp777
Member
Posts: 2917
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 28, 2014 (GMT)

Since I cant test on an OBDI vehicle
I have been waiting for feedback on
which form of the boost equation using
[221127] actually worked.

Did [221127] return a raw value from the
pid or a value calculated from its associated
equation? No one has answered that question
yet for me.

I will try to find the link that will explain the
pid math…

http://torque-bhp.com/forums/?wpforumaction=viewtopic&t=3586.0

http://torque-bhp.com/forums/?wpforumaction=viewtopic&t=2807.0

I would think efficiency would be measured as
output/input*100. So if EBP is creating the boost…
Boost/EBP*100.

But I could be wrong. Wont be the first time.

Still curious about the polynomial equations too.

MAFoElffen
Member
Posts: 27
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 28, 2014 (GMT)

Have it inputted that into my phone. I finished repairing the cut dash wiring. But still have the instrument panel out (need to replace some connectors on the light switch) and have the turbo out. (Waiting on the rebuildable to show…)

I can’t start it yet… But, I should be able to turn on the key with the dash still apart without too much troubles. I’ll go out to the truck and see if I get data from MAP (was blank before)…

EDIT– Sorry. Can not say if it works yet. Seems the ECU does not work without the instrument panel connected. NO– That wasn’t it = found more wires cut. (Darn it!!!)

Various experience and interests

m j
Member
Posts: 92
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 28, 2014 (GMT)

I have the IATc in torque. I have not verified it against a known thermo but it looks to work fine.

two things, can we supress the ECU warning on every startup? and can we suppress the conversion to °f on the IATc gauge?

how do I give you the raw hex data from the accel pedal PID?

m j
Member
Posts: 92
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 28, 2014 (GMT)

I will try to find the link that will explain the
pid math…

http://torque-bhp.com/forums/?wpforumaction=viewtopic&t=3586.0

http://torque-bhp.com/forums/?wpforumaction=viewtopic&t=2807.0

——

those are great links

Capp777
Member
Posts: 2917
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 28, 2014 (GMT)

Quote from m j on January 28, 2014
I have the IATc in torque. I have not verified it against a known thermo but it looks to work fine.

two things, can we supress the ECU warning on every startup? and can we suppress the conversion to °f on the IATc gauge?

how do I give you the raw hex data from the accel pedal PID?

End Quote.

The only way I know to stop the conversions is
to change units to text not recognized by Torque.

Really only one version of the temp pids is needed. Torque
will convert its value as needed. I provided both after you
mentioned being more comfortable with °C during our
testing.

I noticed that todays update to the Torque Pro app has a new
special setting for Ford ECUs. Maybe that will eliminate the
warning message…but I understand why Ian would want the
message. Some 7.3 owners in the past threads reported engine
stalling when leaving the dashboard screens and entering the
adapter status functions on the main screen.

I hope GW1 was able to use the TFT F polynomial. Looking forward
to seeing working screenshots.

Edit:

I hope Ian would consider adding a disable conversion toggle
under the display configuration menu that would allow
overriding the settings>units preference as needed.

m j
Member
Posts: 92
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 28, 2014 (GMT)

I need to experiment with torque converting “as needed” I guess
the only thing I want in celcius is ambient temps from the IAT.

torque kills the engine (not really) when it attempts to read DTC on our PCM.
auto scan for DTC option, after deselecting that I have not had an issue.

for a manual trans it doesnt really ‘kill the engine’.
if you are travelling and torque does its auto DTC scan the PCM resets, you get a dead pedal and if you are in gear the dead engine decels the vehicle. if you tap the throttle a few times it will come back to ‘life’ and the road speed will have kept the motor spinning so it just ‘wakes back up’.
I did a 2500km trip towing a car trailer and part way through discovered what was causing the issue

m j
Member
Posts: 92
Post Re: Trans temp, IAT, and MAP
on: January 30, 2014 (GMT)

I had some time in the shop today and got a log with a regulator feeding compressor air to the MAP
it reads higher then I was told

Time Boost map freq(Hz)
28:12.7 0.25 110.81
28:13.7 0.32 111.07
28:14.7 0.32 111.07
28:15.7 0.25 110.81
28:16.7 0.25 110.81
28:17.7 0.34 111.14
28:18.7 0.34 111.14
28:19.7 0.34 111.14
28:20.7 0.34 111.14
28:21.7 0.32 111.07
28:22.7 0.41 111.4
28:23.7 0.41 111.4
28:24.7 0.41 111.4
28:25.7 0.5 111.73
28:26.7 0.98 113.46
28:27.7 2.29 118.21
28:28.7 2.93 120.54
28:29.7 3.12 121.23
28:30.7 3.49 122.56
28:31.7 4.12 124.83
28:32.7 4.3 125.49
28:33.7 4.3 125.49
28:34.7 4.41 125.91
28:35.7 5.36 129.34
28:36.7 6.24 132.51
28:37.7 6.81 134.58
28:38.7 7.4 136.72
28:39.7 7.53 137.21
28:40.7 7.53 137.21
28:41.7 8.01 138.92
28:42.7 8.26 139.84
28:43.7 8.4 140.36
28:44.7 9.46 144.21
28:45.7 9.86 145.65
28:46.7 9.99 146.1
28:47.7 9.99 146.1
28:48.7 10.14 146.66
28:49.7 10.14 146.66
28:50.7 10.14 146.66
28:51.7 12.18 154.05
28:52.7 12.46 155.07
28:53.7 13.43 158.57
28:54.7 13.8 159.9
28:55.7 14.59 162.79
28:56.7 14.94 164.06
28:57.7 15.5 166.07
28:58.7 15.86 167.39
28:59.7 15.86 167.39
29:00.7 15.86 167.39
29:01.7 15.86 167.39
29:02.7 15.86 167.39
29:03.7 15.86 167.39
29:04.7 15.86 167.39
29:05.7 15.86 167.39
29:06.7 15.86 167.39
29:07.7 15.86 167.39
29:08.7 15.86 167.39
29:09.7 15.86 167.39
29:10.7 15.86 167.39
29:11.7 15.86 167.39
29:12.7 15.86 167.39
29:13.7 15.86 167.39
29:14.7 15.86 167.39
29:15.7 15.86 167.39
29:16.7 15.86 167.39
29:17.7 15.86 167.39
29:18.7 15.86 167.39
29:19.7 15.86 167.39
29:20.7 15.86 167.39
29:21.7 15.86 167.39
29:22.7 15.86 167.39
29:23.7 15.86 167.39
29:24.7 15.86 167.39
29:25.7 15.86 167.39
29:26.7 15.86 167.39
29:27.7 15.86 167.39
29:28.7 15.86 167.39
29:29.7 15.86 167.39
29:30.7 15.86 167.39
29:31.7 15.86 167.39
29:32.7 15.86 167.39
29:33.7 15.86 167.39
29:34.7 15.86 167.39
29:35.7 15.86 167.39
29:36.7 15.86 167.39
29:37.7 15.86 167.39
29:38.7 15.86 167.39
29:39.7 15.86 167.39
29:40.7 15.86 167.39
29:41.7 15.86 167.39
29:42.7 15.86 167.39
29:43.7 15.86 167.39
29:44.7 15.86 167.39
29:45.7 15.86 167.39
29:46.7 15.86 167.39
29:47.7 15.86 167.39
29:48.7 15.86 167.39
29:49.7 15.86 167.39
29:50.7 15.86 167.39
29:51.7 15.86 167.39
29:52.7 15.86 167.39
29:53.7 15.86 167.39
29:54.7 15.86 167.39
29:55.7 15.86 167.39
29:56.7 15.86 167.39
29:57.7 15.86 167.39
29:58.7 15.86 167.39
29:59.7 15.86 167.39
30:00.7 15.86 167.39
30:01.7 15.86 167.39
30:02.7 15.86 167.39
30:03.7 15.86 167.39
30:04.7 15.86 167.39
30:05.7 15.86 167.39
30:06.7 15.86 167.39
30:07.7 15.86 167.39
30:08.7 15.86 167.39
30:09.7 15.86 167.39
30:10.7 15.86 167.39
30:11.7 15.86 167.39
30:12.7 15.86 167.39
30:13.7 15.86 167.39
30:14.7 15.86 167.39
30:15.7 15.86 167.39
30:16.7 15.86 167.39
30:17.7 15.86 167.39
30:18.7 15.86 167.39
30:19.7 15.86 167.39
30:20.7 15.86 167.39
30:21.7 15.86 167.39
30:22.7 15.86 167.39
30:23.7 15.86 167.39
30:24.7 15.86 167.39
30:25.7 15.86 167.39
30:26.7 15.86 167.39
30:27.7 15.86 167.39
30:28.7 15.86 167.39
30:29.7 15.86 167.39
30:30.7 15.86 167.39
30:31.7 15.86 167.39
30:32.7 15.86 167.39
30:33.7 15.86 167.39
30:34.7 15.86 167.39
30:35.7 15.86 167.39
30:36.7 15.86 167.39
30:37.7 15.86 167.39
30:38.7 15.86 167.39
30:39.7 15.86 167.39
30:40.7 15.86 167.39
30:41.7 15.86 167.39
30:42.7 15.86 167.39
30:43.7 15.86 167.39
30:44.7 15.86 167.39
30:45.7 15.86 167.39
30:46.7 15.86 167.39
30:47.7 15.86 167.39
30:48.7 15.86 167.39
30:49.7 15.86 167.39
30:50.7 15.86 167.39
30:51.7 15.86 167.39
Time Boost map freq(Hz)
32:02.0 0.41 111.4
32:03.0 0.34 111.14
32:04.0 0.41 111.4
32:05.0 0.41 111.4
32:06.0 0.41 111.4
32:07.0 0.41 111.4
32:08.0 0.48 111.66
32:09.0 0.5 111.73
32:10.0 0.48 111.66
32:11.0 0.48 111.66
32:12.0 0.57 111.99
32:13.0 2.83 120.16
32:14.0 3.21 121.55
32:15.0 3.43 122.33
32:16.0 3.6 122.96
32:17.0 3.69 123.28
32:18.0 3.69 123.28
32:19.0 3.69 123.28
32:20.0 3.98 124.33
32:21.0 4.91 127.69
32:22.0 5.34 129.26
32:23.0 5.46 129.7
32:24.0 5.68 130.5
32:25.0 6.01 131.68
32:26.0 6.13 132.14
32:27.0 6.36 132.97
32:28.0 7.67 137.71
32:29.0 7.89 138.51
32:30.0 8.15 139.43
32:31.0 8.15 139.43
32:32.0 8.4 140.36
32:33.0 8.78 141.73
32:34.0 9.04 142.69
32:35.0 9.46 144.21
32:36.0 9.86 145.65
32:37.0 10.14 146.66
32:38.0 10.43 147.69
32:39.0 10.55 148.15
32:40.0 10.71 148.73
32:41.0 11.27 150.75
32:42.0 11.43 152.45
32:43.0 11.87 152.94
32:44.0 11.91 153.06
32:45.0 11.91 153.06
32:46.0 11.91 153.06
32:47.0 12.64 155.7
32:48.0 12.64 155.7
32:49.0 12.64 155.7
32:50.0 12.64 155.7
32:51.0 12.64 155.7
32:52.0 12.64 155.7
32:53.0 12.64 155.7
32:54.0 12.64 155.7
32:55.0 12.64 155.7
32:56.0 12.64 155.7
32:57.0 12.64 155.7
32:58.0 12.64 155.7
32:59.0 12.64 155.7
33:00.0 12.64 155.7
33:01.0 12.64 155.7
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